Data Dave Dives Deeper with Anthony Algmin | D3Clarity Podcast

Data Dave Dives Deeper with Anthony Algmin

In this episode of “Data Dave Dives Deeper,” Alexis and Data Dave sit down with Anthony Algmin, CEO and founder of 8rain Station, to explore the fascinating intersection of data management and sports betting. Anthony shares his journey from financial analysis to sports betting data analytics, highlighting the importance of understanding data’s role in decision-making across various industries. As they delve into the intricacies of sports betting, Anthony explains how data-driven strategies can help bettors make informed decisions, akin to how businesses use data for risk management and growth.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into the world of data analytics, especially in the context of sports betting, where Anthony’s expertise reveals the potential of leveraging data to achieve better outcomes. The episode also touches on Anthony’s new book, “Data Leadership for Everyone,” which offers practical advice on turning data into actionable insights for business leaders. Whether you’re a data enthusiast or just curious about sports betting, this episode promises a wealth of knowledge and engaging discussions on the transformative power of data.

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Published:

June 25, 2024

Duration:

00:27:55

Transcript

Alexis
Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Data Dave Dives Deeper. I’m Alexis, your host of this podcast along with, I’m hoping your favorite podcast, Talk Tech with Data Dave. Today, I’m here with Dave and Anthony to talk about a totally new topic. Super pumped. Hey Dave. Hey, Anthony. Dave, how are you today?

Data Dave
I am very well, Alexis. How are you? I hope everything’s going excellent where you are.

Alexis
Super pumped. It’s kind of ugly outside right now, but that’s okay because my hair looks good today and so I’m feeling good.

Data Dave
Excellent, excellent. Well, I’m delighted to say that we’re here today with Anthony Algmin. I hope I got that right. It’s a hard G. From 8rain Station, and he’s the CEO and founder based off of data strategy and particularly data in sports betting.

So, we’re going to be talking about data, sata management, sports betting, and all things data. Anthony, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself. How you got here? What brought you into data? And how you see this going forward for both people in the sports betting world, but also people generally looking at data growing in the industry across all things, all industries, and all things data?

Anthony Algmin
Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here, and it’s a funny journey to now be representing a sports betting data analytics company instead of doing data leadership consulting like I’d done for a lot of my career. But it’s such a hot time to be in data. It’s funny how you think like, “How did I end up doing this?”

And I started out, if I really roll it back, when I graduated college my four-year degree. Graduated college. Decided I needed sales experience, and this is where many of the great ideas of my life are like, “I’m gonna do this.” And so, I decided to go and become a stockbroker. So, this is the late 90s, and I’m like, “I’m gonna be a stockbroker.” I will tell you, I enjoyed the financial analysis part of it. There was data underneath that, by the way, the data seeds had been planted very early. I loved the analysis. I hated the sales, because where I was working it was, “Here’s the stock of the day. Here’s the bond of the day. Go sell them to whoever you can.” and like for me…

Data Dave
Pressure sales in stocks right pressure.

Anthony Algmin
Yeah, I got the accreditations and the credentials and everything, and I’m like, “This isn’t for me.” So I quit.

And so that had put me squarely into the financial industry and then I was like, “Well, what do I do now because it’s not sales, it’s not stock brokering. It’s not probably the financial analysis CFA model that I had in my head when I was graduating college.

Data Dave
No more sales and stock. Enough of that.

Anthony Algmin
And where it led me to was a technical job, which turned into a much more technical job than it was at the beginning, cause I had had some computer science classes, but I had always thought like… This late 90s. I thought that being a technologist meant sitting at a computer and banging out code all day. I didn’t want to do that. I was a business person, right?

But I found this job at Morningstar. So, Morningstar is the mutual fund ratings company. They now do a whole bunch of other stuff too, but at that time, they were still fairly small and they were doing star ratings and doing all this analysis. My job at Morningstar was to take information from mutual funds and get them into data systems. And in those days, they weren’t paying for any of this information, and mutual funds could be very large, huge conglomerate things, and they can literally be somebody running it out of their basement.

And a lot of the time, when you’re not paying for something, they’ll send it to you, however they want. They’re like, “Yeah, we’re somewhat interested in being in this Morningstar thing. Here. Take this,” and it’s written on the back of a napkin kind of thing. And so, my job is to find ways to get this into databases.

Data Dave
Yep. Okay. Yes.

Anthony Algmin
That led to an entire career of technology, data architecture, trading systems, and a whole bunch of stuff in the financial industry. A lot of it was at a proprietary trading firm. I’m in the Chicago area, and the proprietary trading firm was doing futures and options and all this really high frequency stuff and all that. My job was to do a lot of reporting, a lot of reconciliation on the accounting side, doing accounting, automation, and all of this kind of stuff. I started to build in my mind how data impacts businesses. And I learned a lot of the technical chops of, “How do you build the systems to make all this possible?”

Data Dave
“How do you feed it around? How do you move it around? How do you make it consistent? How do you make it sing and dance for you?”

Anthony Algmin
Exactly! “What do the systems need to do to support interesting businesses in the financial space?” And that led me to have an opportunity to get an MBA. And so once I got the MBA, I was doing that in night school. Once that happened, and I paid off my indentured servitude to the trading firm, I went into consulting because that’s what you do. I wanted to get out of that trading world. I’d been there for several years at that point.

And I said, “I need to see more. You know, I need to get out of this small town and go and explore the world.” And so that’s what I did. And so, that led me to a company called Westmer Partners, who really helped me make a connection that I had missed. And there’s a theme to making connections that I had missed that will get again in this career. But they helped me understand that all the stuff that I did when I was in building technology in relatively small companies, usually in the financial space. There was a whole world of thought around this data management, data governance, data. There is a lot of people thinking a lot about this, whereas I was just trying to figure it out as I went along.

I didn’t even know that these were things. I had technology, books. I had programming books. I had nothing that said data governance or data management or any of that stuff. I just figured that out. And so, when I went into consulting now, I started to see this whole world of data strategy, management strategy, data operations. All of these things that organizations struggled with and looking at large-scale programs around data quality and ended up being in a place where, knowing data and knowing technology, I became an expert in data governance and data management, and I kind of became the person that they sent to programs and projects that were broken or not performing as well as they should, because data was at the core of that problem.

Data Dave
Right, yeah.

Alexis
Always.

Anthony Algmin
And that happened time and again. And so, I enjoyed it. The problem was that I had a young family at the time and I hated being on the road. And I saw the people that were being successful in that kind of consulting business. I’m like, this isn’t me. So again, I found myself enjoying the work knowing who I am and what I do. At this point, I am a data person. I’m a data leadership, data strategy. That is my thing. That is my life’s work, and I’m excited about it. I’m so happy I found it. I could just never find the context, right?

And that was where it led to other consulting firms. It actually led to being a Chief Data officer for a client as the Chief Data Officer of the Chicago Transit Authority for a period of time after they had been my consulting client.

And then that led to doing some startup work with Amazon Web Services consulting and data firm, and doing a little bit more technology leaning because I’m so interested in the cloud and that’s where a lot of things pull me into different directions and interested in stuff. And then I go and chase them down. But the entire time, whether I was on the industry side or was on the consulting side, I never found a home. Like I never felt right. I never felt like I belonged.

And you’ve talked to me for 5 minutes and you know, like, I am all energy and all out there and this is how I am in everything. And I will tell you, in a company this gets tiresome. You don’t need Anthony in every meeting doing his Anthony thing. That does not play as well in the boardroom as it does on YouTube.

And what I found is after I went through all this, and I took a position in Big Pharma during the pandemic, I hadn’t planned on it. I had been doing my own data leadership consulting business in the late 2010s when the pandemic hit, I was clearly in that. I’m like, “This is okay. I don’t love the sales side of it. I didn’t like a lot of things about it, but I’m like, I can do it well and I like at least like being independent. I can do it my way.” That was good. Pandemic hits. I had an opportunity to go help a pharmaceutical organization help their R&D organization change everything and how they work with data and technology in each other. And I’m like, “This is a big swing.” And getting in that right at the pandemic, I’m like, “Oh, I’m okay. I’m gonna go do that.” So I spent a few years in that, and I’m glad I did. I’m glad I helped in the way I could.

But I also realized like that, wasn’t it. I had a really good friend who had brought me in, and he loved it. He thrived in that environment, and I always once again, felt like a fish out of water, maybe even more so there than maybe anywhere else in my career.

So super big company definitely wasn’t it either. And then I found what I’m doing now. And it was a kind of random turn of events. I had started to make some connections and understand how you could do data-driven sports betting and during the pandemic when you didn’t have anything else you could do, a lot of people picked up sports betting. There had been some legislation changes that now, in the US, we have 50 different jurisdictions for online sports betting. Because they broke apart some of the old legislation, so now, each state can kind of decide for themselves.

So, there’s all these different places and all these different rules and all these different opportunities, if you are using data and trying to find good plays, there’s a whole bunch of places that you can go and find edges and opportunities there.

So, what I found though, is I found like, OK, I started doing some of the betting which was interesting and it was fine. But like, I’ve never been that big of a risk taker or gambler or whatever. But when I spent space after being in it for a while and starting to create a brand like I said, on YouTube with 8rain Bets and talking about how I do this data-driven betting, because I finally made this connection. I’m like, “I’ve been doing data-driven stuff and finance and all this stuff forever. And then I finally realized, like, oh wait, you mean you don’t have to know all the sports gossip to actually do well, sports betting.”

You could actually drive it all from data analytics and stuff that we used to do in the financial industry. Except it’s like 30 years in the past. So, I’m like, “I’ve seen the future. I’ve worked finance. This is a crazy, crazy place that needs to really grow up.”

I mean, there is so much money in sports betting right now and these companies act like they are bookies with business cards. It’s fascinating. Like we have sports books at Major League stadiums. There’s a Draft King sports book at Wrigley Field, there’s a FanDuel sports book at the United Center in Chicago. It’s like they have all the money in the world, yet they’re still perfectly happy taking people and taking advantage of them who don’t know better and who don’t realize the importance of that little number next to the bet. That little number is everything. It’s like a price at Amazon.com. Nobody in their right mind would go shopping at Amazon or any other store and just be like, “I like them shoes. I’m gonna get those shoes. Do you need to know the price? Nah, I don’t need to know the price.”

Data Dave
They need to know the price, right?

Anthony Algmin
Like, yeah, nobody who’s betting, no casual better who’s betting even looks at the price most of the time, they’re like, “Well, I like this play. I’m just gonna play this.” And the sports books would love to have you keep doing that.

And so, what we do is we start to create price sensitivity in that. What we did, and what I found my calling was, is to help people learn this stuff. And I made this connection myself, and then I realized what we needed was an adult in the room. What we needed was a voice like mine, who could actually explain some of this to people who could use it and do better in their sports betting. Because most of the people out there creating sports betting content are a bunch of 20 somethings who learned about this kind of betting strategy in college. And they’re like, look at this, I can make all these stacks of cash, and I’m like, “Right, this is silly. I’ve been doing data analytics consulting forever,” and I realized this is data analytics consulting, and I’m like all of a sudden I just have a context of people who are doing this in their hobby instead of being bored at work. They’re now interested in their own personal free time because they are now making connections. And what’s so cool is that I can do the same basic function that I’ve done for years. But I can do it like me. I can be amped up. I can be energetic. I can go and tell weird stories on the YouTube channel that I’m live streaming every single day, and I teach people how to do data-driven, sports betting.

Just like I would teach them how to look at reports or how to manage their data in a corporate environment and what’s fun is that in sports betting. It’s so pure because it’s just you. It’s just you looking at some data, seeing what it tells you, making a decision, and then seeing the results. And it happens all within a day. And then you do it again, and you do it a whole bunch of times in one day. Whereas in business, it takes a lot longer to operationalize the activities and decisions that you’re coming up with when you’re looking at data.

And so for me, it’s like the perfect world because not only does Anthony and my style play better on YouTube than in the boardroom, but now I have interested people who are doing this themselves, making real money. And granted like the mission that I was on in the Pharmaceutical industry was probably the most important mission I’ll ever be on at any time in my entire career. But I’ll tell you, I get a lot more emails now saying, “Anthony, thank you for helping me do this. Thank you. Because we’re going to Disney this year because of what you did for us.

Alexis
Ohh that’s wonderful.

Anthony Algmin
And so I’m like all I did was go out there and try to connect people to these concepts, these ideas, this understanding of data. And the cool thing too, is that it doesn’t just help their sports betting, it helps them in their careers because they can take the skills they use in sports and bring them back to the office as well.

Data Dave
So you’re now taking all the statistics from the sports world and showing it to people or teaching people how to analyze it. To start to say, “Sports betting isn’t about what team you like or whatever. It’s about the behaviors of the team and the behaviors of the team in the macro compared with other teams and compared with other things.” To start to say, “Can I predict an outcome?”

Anthony Algmin
Right. So, there’s a couple things to it. One is people overweigh their sports knowledge, but the fact is that their sports knowledge is the same as everybody else’s sports knowledge. They’re listening to the same shows, are watching the same games. They don’t really have a unique differentiation there. But if they look… and what my software does…

So, to complete the kind of career story. What happened is that I started going out onto YouTube and teaching people and starting to just explore and trying to help people understand that, and that led me to realize that the software tools that were out there in the sports betting space were not good enough or what we really wanted to accomplish. And I’m like, “I’ve got a background in this,” and I’ve had business partner who co-founded 8rain Station with me. We knew how to build these kinds of systems and had done it in a whole bunch of other contexts. You know, I just came out of working in biopharmaceuticals, trying to change their entire R&D organization. I can figure out how to design some tools for sports betting and that was the thing.

Everybody who had been building these tools came from sports betting. They didn’t come from data analytics-software technology, right? So that’s where we said, “Okay, we can build the software better.” And so, what our software does is takes information from every sports book we can get data for, all around the world, and by doing that and applying a very simple financial concept of the efficient market hypothesis, we say, “If we look at all the data that we can, the market’s gonna tell us what truth. Reasonably, should be at least better than I would be able to know otherwise, and I can then have a better start to bring in this information. And granted there’s a lot of imperfections and a lot of complications around that. But at its core, if I can bring in that market information in a much deeper way than I ever would be able to otherwise. And then make decisions with that first and foremost, and then maybe even bring in some unique knowledge I might have about a team I follow closely or something like that. Because, the thing is, the efficient market hypothesis works really well when you’re talking about stocks, when you’re talking about financial markets.

Alexis
You lost me. You lost me there, Anthony. The efficient market…

Anthony Algmin
So, let me explain what the efficient market hypothesis is. So, the efficient market hypothesis is that the markets know more than the individuals that the prices that are for a stock or for anything. It’s actually… The efficient market hypothesis is really the best way to estimate unknown very complex things. And you can look at it as if you get a room full of third graders in an elementary school to guess the number of Jelly beans in a jar. The fact is that you’re gonna get some crazy guesses. Somebody’s gonna guess a million and another person can say, “I think there’s 10,” but if you look at the curve of all of the guesses in that room, a bunch of third graders who don’t know anything about counting. That means if you bring them all in, you’ll actually get a fairly reasonable estimate of the actual number of jelly beans in that. Even though none of them have a real good sense on their own, that is at the core of the efficient market hypothesis. It gets to a market number is the best estimate of highly unknown situation.

Alexis
Okay.

Anthony Algmin
And it applies to a point in sports betting because in the financial markets it actually works really well. The best estimate we have of Apple computer stock price, a lot of people looking at it, a lot of people getting the earnings reports, a lot of people buying the devices or viewing the devices, all that stuff over years. You know this is one that has been around decades, we know a lot about that. However, while we may know certain things about a sports team, the bet itself, the opportunity to make a wager, will likely only exist anywhere from one day to a couple of weeks. That’s the entire lifespan of that particular security. There’s only so much information that is truly known in that instance, so we know that while the efficient market hypothesis applies to a point.

It’s far from perfect, and the markets and the sports books are way different than in the financial and the financial industry. If you have a stock that trades in London, New York knows about it immediately, within a second. In sports betting, if Caesars takes a bet for me, they don’t tell FanDuel. They don’t tell Draft Kings. And so there’s all these kind of discrete pools of liquidity. There’s all this stuff that happens. So if you can understand the difference between how efficient markets work and then how it may still apply to sports betting to a point, we can use data to try to fill in some of those gaps and provide different points of light to at least give you an awareness of like based on what you can assess quickly.

And you use that data and make a determination as to whether or not a particular bet would be a good deal or a bad deal, because really, any bet is probably a good bet at the right price. And that’s the part that novice sports bettors often misses that they don’t realize the price is at least as important as the bet. Because there’s times where if the price is the right price, I’ll take almost any bet. But you can’t ever tell me, “Hey, take this bet. I like the over and this.” I’m like, “I don’t care until you tell me what the price is.” You know, those shoes are great. But are those great $100 shoes? Are those great $1000 shoes? Cause what I’m looking for and great shoes really is different at $100 or $1000.

Data Dave
Depends on the price.

Anthony Algmin
Depends on the price every time. And so, anybody who’s betting without price is basically guaranteed to lose because the entire system is set up to take advantage of that basic fact, and once we understood that, we understood that the data and some basic financial kinds of tools and technologies that we’ve been using in other contexts could apply here. And nobody else was doing it. It became the most obvious thing for us to do. And so my business partner and I started running and doing that and in early January, we launched software and it’s been quite a rocket ship ride of excitement in an area that’s so much fun. It’s been so much fun.

Data Dave
Excellent.

Alexis
Early January, as in very, very recently or like a year ago?.

Anthony Algmin
Early January 2024. Yeah, it’s January 8th is when we went out with the launch.

Data Dave
Oh wow. Okay, like very recently. Ohh wow.

Anthony Algmin
So yeah, I left the pharmaceutical organization. May 1st was my first day at 8train Bets doing content, doing sports betting as my career. And then, we started really getting serious about the software once we understood what we needed to build. We started building the software in about September. We opened up early access for a beta version in November, and then we launched the full product in January.

Alexis

Ohh well congratulations. That’s awesome.

Data Dave
Congratulations.

Anthony Algmin
Thank you.

Data Dave
We’re talking about a world here. We’re talking about sports betting and sports. Sports are surrounded by data. We collect statistics on sports all the time, everywhere. And people do place bets. They take risk and place their money on the outcome of games and on the outcome of different. And so the correlation is tremendous to start to say, “I’ve got data that describes my business. How well does my data describe my business? How well does data describe this game, this league, this, whatever?”

Now, how do I correlate that, and how do I have confidence that the data is describing it in such a way that I can take this risk? And that’s what we’re doing in business all the time.

That’s what we’re doing in data governance to say, “How do I have confidence in the data describing my business? So I can take this risk versus that risk.” It’s just the sports betting. Structure brings it very much down to Earth that says, “Yes, we’ve got all these statistics on the sports. We’ve got all the books and all the bookies that are building the prices on risk, and then we’ve got individuals that are deciding in the moment to either take the risk or not take the risk.” But it’s exactly the same world. It’s fascinating.

Anthony Algmin
It is like… once you’ve seen behind the curtain, you’ll never look at it the same way again. Because I had always just assumed when I thought of sports but I’m like, “Yeah, I know there’s a lot of data in that stuff, but I don’t understand and I don’t have to.”

I’ve never been one to have like that encyclopedia knowledge of what’s going on. Like my friends who do. And I just never could do it. So, I’m like, “I can’t remember who’s on what team or what.” So like, I just… this is just something outside of my capability set. But then you realize like people are making financial decisions. Sports betting is literally a financial investment. It is an investment. And they can’t be bothered with prices of the investment. And I’m like, “Okay, we are not doing this right, and it’s time to educate people and let them know, hey, you gotta do this.”

Data Dave
But you peeled back the curtain, and then say, “This isn’t just a game or it’s not just a league or it’s not just whatever it is.” A market and the market has inherent patterns and behaviors in and of itself, and to your point, the market will tell you what the market is doing if you ask it. You might not become the millionaire on that bet because you don’t have the specific knowledge or whatever, but you’ll at least be able to bet with the market and grow with the market and make essentially institutional betting decisions.

Alexis
Well, gentlemen, before we go, I want to loop up. Anthony, I know you have a book coming. That’s either out or coming out called Data Leadership for Everyone. Can you give us a quick two-minute, “Hey, this is what it’s about. And here’s why you should buy it?” Just so that our listeners know that they can find this info somewhere.

Anthony Algmin
So, Data Leadership for Everyone came out in March, and so it should be available by the time this goes live. And it is really about exactly what we’ve been talking about here, although entirely in a business context.

Like I wrote it. There’s a lot of jokes there. I can’t claim it’s the best data book out there, but there’s probably more jokes than in any other data book you’ve read. And so, it’s really about saying and taking this kind of applied data analytics approach around saying data is interesting in a lot of context, but it’s only useful when you put it to work when you actually drive activities and decisions from it. And so that’s at the core of data leadership is saying “What do we need to do as a business to leverage that data in truly valuable ways and in the way it was designed?”

Data Dave
Excellent. Yes, absolutely.

Anthony Algmin
The book was intended to be, and I think, because I worked with an entire editing team that were not technical in any way. This was supposed to be the book that any business person could read and understand. Broadly, what we have to do to make data valuable and to turn it into real value. And that’s what data leadership is all about. And so Data Leadership for Everyone is literally that. “How do we all become data leaders in taking these data assets that we have all around us and turning them into real value?”

So it’s hopefully a fun read, but it’s really eye-opening to a lot of people who haven’t been immersed in the space for decades. It was me trying to share with them some of these key tips. And so there’s nothing to do with sports betting at all, literally init, but then you could read it and apply it all to sports betting as well. So, it’s kind of fun that way too.

Data Dave
So I’ll definitely have to get a copy of that book and read it from that point of view.

Alexis
I want to recommend that you do an audiobook because you have the voice for it, and I’m a fan of audiobooks, so that would be my recommendation on it. But that sounds really cool. I’m serious.

Anthony Algmin
I appreciate that. We definitely have an audio book coming out. I do not know whether or not I will be invited to read it, cause there’s apparently professionals who do this and well, I could probably do okay. But they talk better than I do so…

Alexis
I don’t know, man. I think it would be cool. That’s my opinion.

Data Dave
What I’ll also be looking at coming out of this is take a look at sports betting cause I’ve never really been a sports betting person or deeply into sports enough and I’ve always looked at it from your perspective, which is I’ve never been able to collect the statistics and the mind for who plays what, where, when, how, and whatever else like some people can. And I’ve always looked at it from that perspective, but this is a much more interesting approach that actually I might take a look at.

Anthony Algmin
I appreciate that, and I will tell you half of our customers, half of our Members at 8rain, have no interest in even watching sports, and that was like my fundamental assumption. Like now I can watch sports as part of my job and then I found this thing like there’s not even a whole lot of reason to watch sports in doing this. And so apologies to anyone who’s using it as an excuse to watch sports, but a lot of people love the game that it is within itself around analytics.

Data Dave
Right.

Anthony Algmin
Around predictive models. Around trying to find and carve out edges and strategies that can be profitable, and you can start at very low amounts of money. It’s really…to me the money is the money. There’s a lot of ways to make money in this world. To me, it’s the game of trying to outthink the system and try to beat the books at their game, and that is really, to me, the most exciting part about it. It’s that challenge, that game theory part of it that is so, so challenging and evolving constantly.

Data Dave
Excellent, excellent.

Alexis
It has been just an awesome conversation, Anthony, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. Totally different topic than we’ve ever talked about before. I too, have no interest in sports whatsoever, but I’ve been sitting over here going, “I should look into this is very interesting.”

Data Dave
Well, that’s what I was thinking, yes.

Alexis
Thank you again. Just my regular closeout here. If anybody is interested in joining us for one of these Data Dave Dives Deeper episodes, we would love to talk to you. I’m just like we talked to Anthony, we’d love to have you on the show and talk about the things that you’re passionate about, about data, about technology, about the cloud, about whatever works best for you, and just reach out to us at talktech@d3clarity.com, and we love to hear from you. Dave, it’s been wonderful. Anthony, it’s been fantastic. Such interesting stuff to talk about. I so appreciate having you on the show.

Data Dave
Yes, thank you.

Anthony Algmin
Thank you for having me.

Data Dave
Absolutely. Thank you, Anthony. It’s been a pleasure.

Anthony Algmin
Likewise.

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